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[email protected]. And that's spelled N O D l.it finally called card.
Speaker 0 00:03:14 My hardware wallet of choice is the cold card. I strongly recommend only conducting Bitcoin trades on computers that are dedicated to Bitcoin and cannot connect to the internet. I like the cold card because it is a contained machine optimized for Bitcoin and Bitcoin only cold card is basically a small computer that can only do Bitcoin, which makes securing it more straightforward. Use the code Bitcoin standard on cold card wallet.com to get a 5% discount. Hello, welcome to the Bitcoin standard podcast. Our guest today is Dr. Sean Baker, Dr. Sean Baker is an orthopedic surgeon and an elite athlete who at the age of 54 is achieving incredible feats of physical stamina, physical strength, breaking records on rowing machines, world records and rowing machines. Um, he's achieved incredible things over the last few years and much of that. He attributes to his, uh, carnivore diet. So he comes at the kind of diet from both the perspective of a doctor, as well as the perspective of an athlete and sharp as somebody whose work and, uh, tweets in particular have been highly influential in my journey as a kind of work I'll first, get the bragging out of the way and say that I was a kind of worked for Sean and I used to tweet them about when, when he would post his food and it would contain some green things I would tweet and telling me, you know, get on our level and get rid of that green stuff and replace it with more steak.
Speaker 0 00:04:37 And I'm delighted to see that he's taken my advice and not just taking the advice. He's also taken it to a whole nother level. He's really brought an incredible clarity into understanding, um, eating meat. And I've been hugely influenced by his, uh, approach more than anybody else because of the simplicity of how he approaches it and the straight forward manner in which this health intervention really should be very simple and how he thinks on talks about food. Contrary to pretty much everybody in the diet and fitness industry. Who's always trying to sell you the magic formula and the magic recipe and the magic ratios. Sean is just out there with one consistent message of you need to eat more meat, and it's very easy to market, and it's very easy to laugh at it, but it's much, much, much more difficult to mock the results, especially when you see Sean and many of the, uh, people who, uh, take his advice on his online community, meet our x.com, where a lot of people from all over the world have joined this journey and have achieved incredible health benefits from it. So I'm really glad to have Shawn with us today in particular, as Sean has recently just become a bit coiner. So I'm very delighted that after,
Speaker 1 00:05:58 Uh, many years of seeing all the Bitcoin carnivores on Twitter, he's finally one of us. So Sean, welcome to the podcast and welcome to Bitcoin.
Speaker 2 00:06:09 Say thank you. That's a very nice introduction. I was thinking we could have an old Cohen called beef corn. I don't, I know you're not a big fan of all kinds, but I think beef corn might be the one.
Speaker 1 00:06:19 Well, that's the end of this podcast? Seven. No, I'm joking. Uh, yeah, no, well, you know, Bitcoin is the beef going? I, I think, um, all, all the beef market has already been cornered by Bitcoiners. So there's a, w we, we can, we can use that as a nickname for, uh, for a Bitcoin. So, uh, first of all, Sean, uh, to the uninitiated, could you give us your, um, pitch for the carnivore diet? Why should we eat?
Speaker 2 00:06:51 Well? I think, you know, I tend to look at things of the long view. And I think if, if we look at humans as a species over the entirety of humanity, humans were just better humans when we ate a lot of meat. I mean, there's, there's, there's ample evidence, you know, going back, uh, forever or however long you want to say humans of Rome, the planet. I mean, if you're an evolutionary theory believer, then you're going to say, humans have been around about 3 million years, going back to the early homo habilis and perhaps into Australopithecus saints. We know that, you know, homo erectus, uh, and I'm actually about to interview Mickey Bundoora just wrote a nice paper on, on, on the trophic level of humans, but humans, uh, acquired the ability to scavenge, you know, meat initially. And then we began to hunt some, some sometime around 1.5, 2 million years ago, efficiently killing these big animals.
Speaker 2 00:07:40 We grew this enormous brain and, you know, I think things were doing well for us from an individual level. We then sort of ran out of our food, so to speak, you know, we, we kind of through either hunting or other sort of habitat pressures we put on these animals and it's pretty clear, you know, I know there's people that think that some common hit the earth 12,000 years ago, but really these great megafauna extinctions occurred without exception, wherever humans sort of showed up when they got into the Pacific islands, all the animals Australia particularly disappeared within a few thousand years. Same thing happened in North America. It happened across Asia crap across Europe. So we overate our food supply basically. And then we were left with small, skinny animals, you know, Gazelles, which are much harder to hunt. There's a much less fat on those animals, a harder to get energy.
Speaker 2 00:08:27 And then eventually we, we sort of by necessity, you know, develop the agriculture at some point, you know, and, uh, since that time, and many people don't realize that the human species as a whole, on an individual level saw a huge reduction in brain size of about 200 CCS. We saw our stature dropped by about six inches. Our bones became fragile, our teeth became weak. And so, I mean, we were just better humans when we had access to better and better nutrition. I think a doubt without exception, meat is better food. It's more nutritious, it's more bioavailable. You know, it is more easily absorbed. And if we look at every species that's ever walked or full blown or swam across planet earth, something like 85 to 90% of them have chosen, chosen a carnivorous approach to, to acquiring their nutrition. Now, there are a lot of herbivores on a planet.
Speaker 2 00:09:20 You, you can, you can make a lot of individuals through, through cheap food, uh, but you don't make robust, healthy individuals. And I think what we see is that while agriculture allowed us to develop civilizations and put these sort of artificial, uh, hierarchies in place that is not done much for individual health, in fact, it's made it much worse. And again, it's nice to reflect upon, you know, where we came from. But what I always do is I look at the results, like I said, I'm very results driven. And I can just say, you know, in 2021, I can take people and I can put them on a diet that consists of either entirely meat or almost all meat and almost without exception, their health dramatically improves. And I mean, I think it's as simple as that, you know, I think you can make all the speculations and theories and look into biochemical processes, but at the end of the day, results are what count or results won't matter. And, and we've got that in spades. And I, and I demonstrate that, you know, personally, not only with myself, but the people that, that, like you said, that that sort of do what I've suggested people do. We see tremendous reversals of different diseases, whether it's diabetes, whether it's mental health disease, whether it's auto immune disease, gut issues, arthritis, so on and so forth. So it's a very powerful, uh, dietary intervention. And I think it's one that, that many people would find tremendous benefit in.
Speaker 1 00:10:41 People can get lost a little bit in arguing too much about evolutionary history and the history of humans. And, um, it's not very easy to come up with conclusive answers on those things, but ultimately what I really like about your approach is that, you know, we don't need to speculate about how things were immediately. And years ago, we have a lot of cases around us today where we can look at them and we have, you know, over the last 100 years, we've seen a lot of tribes and a lot of populations in the world go from eating a meat only, or predominantly meat based diet into eating a modern diet. And we've seen the incredible damage that has done to them. So personally, the work of a Western price has been hugely influential in my, uh, in my transformation to corn, every because he saw populations of people who were eating purely meat and they were doing great.
Speaker 1 00:11:33 And then a few hundred kilometers away from them, genetically very similar populations who had access to global markets and were able to secure modern foods who are suffering from all of the modern diseases that we take as a normal part of life, which were unheard of for the Hunter gatherers, who are only a hundred, a few hundred kilometers away from them. And if we look around today, yeah. The examples of people who are doing these interventions today, I think is just the most fascinating thing about it. When you start hearing these, you know, there's no other explanation for all of these enormous numbers of N equals two ones that dismissively scientists would like to say, well, let's just anecdote an anecdote as if somehow that invalidates the experiences of somehow in, you know, scientific thinking is going to always just skip over all of these anecdotes.
Speaker 1 00:12:24 When in fact, you know, it only takes one anecdote to falsify a theory. We only need the sun to rise from the West once in order for all of our geography to be falsified. It's a, we can't just say, well, that's an N equals one, and we're just going to go ahead and continue to believe what we believe about astronomy one, falsification, you know, one person who was able to thrive on a diet like this poses, a lot of questions about, um, the conventional diet perspective on it. You would expect that with all of these incredible results, you'd expect that, uh, uh, doctors and, uh, the nutrition establishment and other, and, you know, government agencies would be all over this. It's a way to cure people very easily, very cheaply and without drugs and expensive procedures. How has your experience of this been so far?
Speaker 2 00:13:15 Well, I mean, my experience has been, it's worked and I've sown that over and over again, but as far as, you know, being accepted and embraced, uh, there is a lot of, a lot of, uh, I guess, dogma that's been layered upon. And I, you know, I just, just going back to the evolutionary w again, you point out that, uh, we can't for sure know what people ate a million years ago. I think it's, I think it's hard to do that. You can speculate, you can, you can for sure know what they didn't eat. You know, we know they did not eat, you know, canola oil. We, they did not eat processed fast food. So we can just say, that's not part of the human diet, but as far as, you know, if we look at the systems in place in a modern healthcare system, I mean, it largely is an arm of the pharmacy, pharmaceutical companies.
Speaker 2 00:13:58 I mean, medic medical school curriculums were often designed and paid for by pharmaceutical companies as they've been developed over the years. And so you're really within that system. And so as a physician, you're really kind of working as a subcontractor, you know, knowingly or unknowingly for these pharmaceutical companies. And while it sort of does an okay job for some people that are, that are patients, it does a very good job for the pharmaceutical industry. And so that's where, you know, you have to look at, uh, who's benefiting from this system and it's not necessarily the individual. So yes, there's been a surprising dearth of interest in, in this outside of, you know, actual patients and a few doctors. And I would be, I would be, you know, sort of, uh, at fault for not saying that many physicians have been adopting it, but it's not because of, you know, excitement through big organizations, because we do have this online community of social media and, you know, through my efforts and some other efforts of just everyday showing success after success, after success, um, and then being willing to, to try to back it up through, you know, studies have actually know actually Harvard university has, has done a study on, on this carnivore diet.
Speaker 2 00:15:11 It hasn't been published yet. Uh, but it will be coming out probably the spring or probably the summer and the results on that are going to be, you know, largely what we've seen, which is, which is a very good result. So, and there there's some other studies, and of course, I'm also fundraising for a study to do this because the NIH isn't stepping up to do it, you know, it's surprising that there isn't a more interest, but I think there will, I think there will be, as it's hard to deny it. I think it's kind of, you can use the analogy of Bitcoin, you know, the results speak for you, can't deny results. And you know, you've got this, you know, you've got this phenomenon and now, now you're starting to see the wheels turn. You know, you're saying that the corporations starting to take an interest and putting money into Bitcoin, just like you're starting to see more and more people in the health community starting to realize it, you know, and it starting in this low carb community, because they're the ones that are closest close, most closely aligned to what I was talking about, a card over that four or five years ago, you know, and you were a little, you rightly point out you were there before me, everybody thought you were completely crazy.
Speaker 2 00:16:12 And now within a low carbohydrates circles, we're seeing many people say, well, you can go carnivores excepted, or just eating more meat. They're just discovering that this is this incredible health food, which is just ridiculous that we've, you know, to think that it wasn't, that it ever wasn't is just, you know, just complete insanity. But, uh, we have to erase about, I don't know, 50, 60 years of brainwashing, you know, in several generations. And so that's, uh, that's the task at hand.
Speaker 3 00:16:40 Absolutely. I think the parallels are uncanny in terms of the reaction that it elicits from conventional thinkers. So it's the same reaction that you get from economists. When you mentioned Bitcoin, you get the same reaction from nutritionists and doctors when you mentioned Ethan meat only it's it's that snarky. No, at all, I have a degree. You don't have a degree shut up. You know, why are you stepping on my turf? Um, do you know who you're talking to? No, of course you can't just eat meat. No, of course you can't have a long supply that is fixed. No, of course you need a central bank. No, of course you need to have your six to 10 shows all grain every day. And, um, I really think this is, this is part of why there's such an overlap between Bitcoiners and carnivores, because it takes an enormous amount of, um, doggedness and bloody mindedness to be able to withstand the onslaught of people, mocking you for, uh, wanting to eat meat or, uh, uh, Bitcoin, because, you know, it's, it's, it's not what the science says.
Speaker 3 00:17:42 And being able to just, you know, uh, to read all of that out and think for yourself and listen to your body or listen to your own portfolio and make the decision that is best for you and reap the benefits from it. It's, it seems like it's simple, but it's actually extremely difficult. And over the years I've seen many people who have, you know, people, I know I've heard about this for many, many years, and they continue to see the results and they continued to laugh at it and they continued to mock it and they continued to just say, well, this is crazy. Um, you know, in the same breath, they'll tell me why you, you, you haven't been aging. What is your secrets? Well, my secret is I eat meat. Hi, you're still doing that crazy diets. And that's so crazy. And you're just still into that crazy digital currency.
Speaker 3 00:18:27 Well, you know, it's incredible when you think about thinking of the results, it's almost a no-brainer, um, you know, people who eat like this end up having much better results, and similarly people will hold Bitcoin in the pop, performing all manner of other financial assets consistently for a very long time. But, um, tell us more about what you saw as a doctor. So from your experiences as an orthopedic surgeon, these kinds of dimensions were working and they were working so well that you weren't allowed to do them anymore. Yeah. So as I, you know, what got me into this, you know, and as you mentioned, I've been an athlete my whole life. I've been fortunate to be able to compete at very high levels and be very successful. You know, I put the training and, you know, I think I was in my early forties where I noticed that, you know, my health was starting to take a turn for worse.
Speaker 3 00:19:17 So I started to play with different diets. And initially I did the sort of thing that, that, you know, we've been taught, you know, to cut calories, to eat low fat, to eat lots of vegetables. And I was able to lose weight. I mean, to be fair, I was able to do that through sheer discipline and, you know, coupling that with, you know, increasing the exercise capacity or the exercise I was doing. Uh, but I was just miserable. I was a miserable, unhappy person that was hungry and tired and grouchy all the time. And I realized it's not something I could do. So I, you know, I made this transition into different dietary situations. I ended up more eventually on a ketogenic diet, which was kind of heavily meat favored. And I, I saw a profound difference. And then, uh, as a surgeon, you know, I was a very busy surgeon.
Speaker 3 00:20:05 I was in fact, I, I, I'm a very competitive person. I like to compete. And more of the metrics by which surgeons were judged by at the hospital was that it was how many surgeries you were doing. They had a running total who did the most surgeries as much dammit almost every month. It was me, you know, I was, I was cause I hustled. I mean, I, you know, I didn't take a break. I didn't sit down. I wasn't sitting in a doctor's office. I was go, go, go, go, go. You know, let's get this stuff gone, you know, and good outcomes with the patients. Um, you know, the hospital had me on billboards and radio shows on magazines, you know, pro bono because, you know, I was good for their bottom line. You know, this is the way a hospital works. The more procedures you do, you particularly, we're talking about surgical. Sub-specialties the more money the hospital makes. So they love
Speaker 2 00:20:48 That sort of stuff. So as I sort of, you know, what, on my own health journey and thought out, some things were working with me, we got in a situation where we had a lot of obese patients, obese patients have higher risks for complications after surgery, whether it's infection or failure of, of, of, you know, physical therapy or, you know, just catastrophic failure for, for surgery. And so we were very highly encouraged to have patients. We would wait prior to big surgeries, like joint replacements and invariably, you know, almost never had success. You tell, you know, you tell your patient, Hey, Mrs. Jones, I need you to lose about 50 pounds before you're safe for this surgery. And you know, they come back two months later and they might've lost five pounds. And then you'd send them back for and say, keep trying. They come back another two months later and now they've gained 10 pounds and they're all in there and they're in your office crying, you know, desperate.
Speaker 2 00:21:40 And you, you just kind of, okay, Kyle, and you just kind of say, okay, we've tried everything. We're going to go ahead and do the surgery anyway. And, and you know, most of the time they get okay, but as I discovered, you know, these, these very low carb diets, I started seeing success in a very, you know, predictable way. But more importantly, what was, what was kind of interesting to me is that I had people literally on the schedule, I could look at their x-ray yeah, you need a knee replacement, your knees worn out. It looks pretty bad. They're in horrible pain. I put them on a low carb ketogenic diet and their pain would go away. And so all of a sudden we're in a situation and in often without much weight loss, you know, like to see them back two weeks later. And I said, Hey, doc, my knee doesn't hurt anymore.
Speaker 2 00:22:21 So that was very curious to me because I was like, wait a minute. Well, you're the reason you're having surgery is because you're having so much pain. Well, as I, you know, kind of have to see this over and over again, physician in me said, Hey, this is great. You know, I can have these people avoid surgeries and we can do this. And so I wanted to pursue one day a week where I would just do lifestyle, you know, talk to people cause it very difficult, you know, the modern medical practices, you know, every 15 minutes you're seeing patients that's on the schedule. The reality is you might be seeing two patients or three patients in that 15 minute block because you're overbooked and there's people that need to come in and you're always, you don't want to turn people away. So, you know, you have six, seven minutes to see a patient that's not enough time to, to, to initiate a diet and go through the, uh, you know, what it takes, you know, what, what you should be able to do.
Speaker 2 00:23:08 And so I started asking the administrators at the hospital. Now, I remember I was ahead of the surgical group. I was a lead orthopedic surgeon for the entire, for the entire hospital. And they basically said that, you know, we really would prefer you just stick to surgery. You know, don't, don't get people better through lifestyle. We, we like it that you're making a lot of money for us and doing a lot of surgery and you know, it, it eventually, I just, I couldn't, uh, ethically reconcile myself to, to ignoring us anymore. So I kind of did it on my own. I just started saying, you know, tell him I was in my scheduler. He blocked me this time on to spend more time with these patients. And eventually that got me in hot water, the hospital. And then we went through this long arduous sort of sham, peer review process.
Speaker 2 00:23:53 I ended up leaving the hospital and, you know, and then I just kind of started to, uh, start doing less self stuff. And that's where I am now, five years later, you know, we've got this company meter X where we've now, I mean, we've got tens of thousands of people whose lives we've changed, you know, for the better. And I've done more, I've done more for people, uh, you know, with regard to their health as a, as a guy screaming about eating meat that I ever could have as a surgeon. And so it's kind of, it's kind of crazy, but that's why it was kind of worked out.
Speaker 1 00:24:23 Yeah. It's absolutely inspiring what you're doing and it's, um, it, it's, it's an incredible Testament to just how important diet is and how much more effective, uh, prevention is than, uh, treatment and intervention because of, you know, if you can prevent the problem from happening in the first place, if you can take away the cause that's the root solution to the problem. But unfortunately that solution doesn't tend to be very profitable. There's not a lot of people that make money from you eating a lot of meats, shore meat, um, farmers, cattle, farmers make money, but the margin in the meat industry, as you say, are, are not very huge. And you know, your, your butcher has very thin margins and it's, uh, it's, it's not a very, uh, it's, it's not like the industrial food industry where you can produce at mass scale and you can produce it low cost and you can then market it and sell enormous quantities of it.
Speaker 1 00:25:15 So there's a lot of money in the food industry and there's a lot of money in the treatment industry. There's a lot of money in getting people sick and a lot of money in treating them. And, um, you know, the, the hostility toward, uh, meat in my mind is because it disrupts those two businesses. It disrupts the business of feeding people, cheap, junk Fiat foods that get them sick. And it disrupts the business model of making millions from three things and managing, which is, uh, th the horrific word that they use managing illness, which essentially means maximizing how much money you can make out of it. The parallels with Bitcoin are a pretty striking in, in that in Bitcoin. You know, there's an enormous central banking industry and, uh, a lot of, uh, governments and government relief agencies that live off the industry and Bitcoin just completely disrupts that. It just says we don't need to have a central bank. We don't need to have a class of a society that is able to influence and control the money supply. We don't need to have a banking system that is, uh, entrenched with the central bank. And that gets to borrow at favorable rates. We don't need to have this entire central planning business. We can just have software do it, that in my mind explains a lot of the, uh, hostility that we see.
Speaker 2 00:26:36 Yeah, I don't disagree at all. I think that, you know, the parallels are incredibly striking. You know, you think at the way that, you know, we do have this hospital healthcare system, and I'll go as far as, than saying disease management, I'm saying disease maintenance at this point, because we're just maintaining people in their States of disease, hopefully prolong in their lives. So we can continue to capitalize on, on their, their need for medications, drugs, and the healthcare system. And in general, I mean, it's, you know, $3.5 trillion a year, direct care spending costs in the United States. And that doesn't even count the indirect costs that go in there. So it's a huge percent of our GDP going into healthcare. Probably 80% of it is unnecessary. When, you know, you can imagine if you just cut out 80% of that, you know, how many businesses would go under how many hospitals systems would collapse, you know, how many pharmaceutical companies bottom line, so it would be destroyed.
Speaker 2 00:27:32 And so you have this building and I see the parallel with Bitcoin, you know, you've just got this alternate universe that you can participate in and you can do very well. And I think the same thing, my hope is that the market will dictate, you know, market will show you that, you know, people prefer to be healthy rather than dependent upon drugs and, and having their symptoms maintained or managed. I think this is where we see this parallel when we see a lot of the same people in a step down in one, you know, one system to realize that there's a lot of, a lot of things that looked like that. And we see that with, uh, you know, people that, for whatever reason, I think that was why we see so many people that share this, the same sort of thing. The Bitcoin carnivores, uh, is, is a, is a pretty big phenomenon.
Speaker 1 00:28:16 Yeah. And the great thing about having you on board is that you really are the poster child for carbohydrate deficiency. Like it's great to have you as the, uh, as the poster go to reference because, you know, people think that, well, if they're a scientist, then they know about medicine, you know, they're going to be a dweeb in a lab coat because they're so busy figuring out the right food for you to eat and to design the right diet for you, that they're going to look like, um, you know, Dr. Michael Greger and all of these vegan MD's and, uh, you know, you as a kind of a doctor they're just standing and saying, no, actually, if you can figure out the food, you know, it's not something that you need to spend your life in a lab hunched over to try and figure out the secrets to healthy nutrition.
Speaker 1 00:29:03 If you can figure it out, you should be out there looking like Superman, if your diet works and it's, um, you know, in the same way that Bitcoin returns are becoming harder and harder for the haters, the deny we're going to see the same kind of thing. They, the, with, uh, you know, you see, um, anti meat, nutritionists and the prole, um, essentially the mainstream nutrition establishment, which is, um, practically junk food advertisement. Uh, we're going to see people who do this in the long-term, you know, their health is likely going to suffer from it. And, um, it's good to have this kind of visual illustration. My favorite person that makes me optimistic about this is bill Gates because, uh, you know, he's out there promoting all of the Franken foods and meat substitutes. And, uh, he is the perfect poster child for meat deficiency.
Speaker 1 00:29:52 Look at him. He looks like a sack of rotten potatoes. He looks absolutely terrible. And you wonder, you know, somebody who's worth more than a hundred billion dollars. Why can't they figure out how to eat so that they could look healthy? It's sad for him, but he genuinely believes. And it's, it's clear, you know, there's a lot of crazy talk about bill Gates, being some evil mastermind. And I think it's far worse than that. It's not, he genuinely clearly believes that eating meat substitutes is good for you. You look at him, he's clearly not getting enough steak in his diet. If he was you wouldn't be looking like this. So he's not out there as part of some nefarious, conspiracy to feed you bug food and feed you soy, uh, to destroy you. He's to get himself very clearly. And, you know, it's, it's, it's sad for him, but it's, um, it's good that people like him who are promoting this, they look like crap.
Speaker 1 00:30:45 And it's, uh, they're only going to start looking. They're only going to look crappier over time as they continue to promote this. And I think that gives me hope that people are going to notice, you know, it's, it's, um, it's, it's the same thing with, uh, with Fiat and Bitcoin that you, you know, all those haters are all the people who will have so many problems with Bitcoin cannot show you an investment strategy that can be told in Bitcoin. And similarly, all those people who want you to eat bugs, can't show you somebody who broke a world record while heating bugs. And, um, another thing that, um, you bring up and, and you've spoken about this on Twitter is the, how public health has treated the issue of COVID and the two different approaches I found this absolutely fascinating like you or somebody like PD Mannion on Twitter.
Speaker 1 00:31:36 And pretty much everybody who's into results, focused diet and nutrition has a very non hysterical reaction to this thing. And the focus was from the beginning on, you know, people should eat well, get sunshine workout, and that's how you maintain your health. And here we are one year of hysteria later, and the studies continuously show that metabolic health and diet were enormously influential in the outcomes of contracting that disease. So I got the Corona virus at some point, I was not feeling well for two, three days. My productivity went down about 20% for a week, and I slept about 30% extra for a week. And then I was back to normal and life goes on. On the other hand, people are not metabolically healthy. I've had much worse outcomes. What you don't hear, anybody mentioned that except, you know, crazy French people who eat weed like you and me.
Speaker 4 00:32:25 Yeah. I mean, I've been profoundly disappointed in the way, um, that this whole pandemic has been handled, um, for a number of reasons. But, uh, you know, I guess just back to the fake meat stuff, that bill Gates and, and many of the people in Silicon Valley are investing heavily in, I
Speaker 2 00:32:40 Mean, they're investing in your, in, in their, their, they believe that people are
Speaker 4 00:32:43 Gullible enough and sadly many people, they would be right in there, their assumptions, because we see that. And when we look at these, these sort of alternative meat products, all that, you can use the analogy of the old coins, I suppose, you know, the Ethereums of the,
Speaker 5 00:33:00 The food world, you know, you've got,
Speaker 2 00:33:02 You know, these. So I did a nice interview,
Speaker 4 00:33:05 Was Stephan van bleed out of Duke university as a researcher looking into in the food quality. And when they look at beef beef, for instance, there's something like 55,000 unique compounds that are found in beef. And they compare that directly to these impossible burger, beyond meat burgers. And they found there was only 10% overlap, even though the nutritional labels were very similar, similar amounts of protein, similar amounts of fat, similar amounts of, you know, iron it and these other, other products that they're able to get in there, but of the 55,000 compounds. And I think they tested 2000, but of those 2000 only 10% overlapped. And so even though it may look and smell and taste sort of like meat is not meat, it will never be meat. And the same thing goes with cell culture stuff, you know, that's cause this is the next thing we're going to grow meat in a lab, and therefore it's going to be better for the environment.
Speaker 4 00:33:53 First of all, you know, when we look at the inputs to grow lab meat, you have to maintain these, these giant vats of cellular Galop at basically about 98 degrees. It's incredibly energy intensive to do that. You have a huge, you know, heating and air conditioning systems, which require fossil fuels, uh, to produce them in the enormous amount, in the billions of pounds of, of, you know, this meat like product you'd have to do to replace the beef industry. And then the inputs, you can't just grow these things. These cells just don't grow from nothing. You have to feed these cells continuously. And so where do you get the food from? Where do you get the protein from where you get it from soybeans and peas and whatever monocrop that destroys the environment. It's really not at all an environmentally sustainable solution. It's not a energy saving solution.
Speaker 4 00:34:41 It's just, just a bunch of marketing smoke and mirrors. But back to the, you know, the Corona virus issue, you know, I've said from the beginning, you know, I think the measures we're taking are cosmetic. I mean, they're, band-aids, you know, having people walk around with a mask on, maybe it makes a small, tiny fraction of a distance, a difference, you know, a recent study just came out, looking at counties, it's on the CDC website, 1% difference in growth rate, you know, death or incidence rates 1%. They said, it's statistically significant. And that may be, and that's true, but as a clinically significant if I told you with absolute certainty that I could lower your blood pressure by 1%, would you even care? I mean, it's not even clinically significant. So you have to understand the difference between statistical significance and actual meaningful clinical significance. And so when we compare that to something like obesity, where we know that someone who has a BMI of a certain has got a 200%
Speaker 2 00:35:38 Increased likelihood of dying, or if you increase that even more, a 400%, so we're going 1% versus 400%, where should our emphasis be? Should we isolate, protect and improve the vulnerabilities of these populations that are at risk? Or should we just shove everybody in the basement? Tell them the hide, wait for a vaccine, which, Oh, by the way, we don't even know if it's going to cut down on transmissions or not. As you know, in my view, a very backwards way of doing things. I'm not, not that I'm saying that those things can't have some effect, but we're missing the elephant in the room. We're totally disregarding what we should be doing. And, you know, I think if you look at countries like Japan and Vietnam and other countries where obesity rates are almost non-existence and you look at their outcomes and you compare it to the UK, you compare it to the United States.
Speaker 2 00:36:29 It's not even comparable. And people are saying, well, these people are more compliant. Now. They're just not metabolically wrecked when going into this thing. And it's not a surprise, every single other disease, infectious disease out there, whether it's influenza or another coronavirus or any other thing. We see these people that are metabolically compromised, always do worse. And you know, the interesting thing is that, and this is something that people don't want to see, don't want to talk about because maybe they're a friend of Fe afraid of offending people. But if you look at people that are poorly controlled diabetics or obese, or have some other similar situation, they basically will spread and shed virus for longer than an, than a medically healthy person. They will shed more virus, particles. They will incubate more virulent particles. So when you have a large population of obese people, more, you just end up increasing the mortality rates across the board for everybody.
Speaker 2 00:37:27 So these people that are, you know, saying that, you know, well, you didn't do this, or you're not taking a vaccine or wearing a mask. Who's the bigger risk. Is it the person that, that, that continues to exist in a state of metabolic compromise? Are they actually putting you at risk? I'm not so concerned about myself because I know I take care of myself. Like we talked about, I get outside in the sun. I exercise. I go outside, I eat well. So on and so forth. It's not that I'm invulnerable. Nothing could ever happen to me. It's not like I'm Bulletproof or can't die. But right now during this, this little 30 minutes discussion we've had so far, I probably inhaled 50 million virus particles. I mean, this is not even exaggerating. And guess what? I'm still here just like you are. I mean, there's, there's something like a hundred billion viral particles that we ingest every day in our guts. And if we can't handle that, then there's a, there's a big problem. And I think we, and the problem is a lot of people can't, we're seeing where people are becoming so compromised due to the chronic ingestion of what you like to call Fiat food, uh, is, you know, that that's huge part of this.
Speaker 1 00:38:36 I found it absolutely amazing how people, uh, you know, get also self-righteous about you needing to wear a mask and you needing to stay home and you needing to shut down your business and keep your kids at home and prevent your five-year-old children from playing with other five-year-old children. Even though, you know, the odds of a child dying from this disease were lower than the odds of the child getting hit by lightning over the last year, there was a study not getting hit by lightning, but dying from lightning, I think, or maybe getting hit by lightning. I can't remember, but yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's absolutely, uh, one of the last things that children should be worried about. And then you've had children all over the world basically robbed or a year of their life robbed of their education, robbed of their normal social development, robbed of their sports, their activities, their milestones, everything that means anything to them, we just hadn't, it snatched away.
Speaker 1 00:39:33 And we put them in their homes in front of, you know, zoom calls and videos and just, uh, well, you know, don't be selfish and sacrifice your childhood for people who are not willing to sacrifice their Doritos. I mean, it's absolutely insane how self-righteous those people can be about, you needed to make sacrifices when somehow this entire idea of the person themselves taking charge of their own health, you know, eating healthy and not eating the garbage food that is making them weak. It's not something that gets discussed. And it's, you know, it's it's if, if, if you make the mistake of watching mainstream media, if you watch CNN and other kinds of brain damage, you will think that way, because that stuff doesn't come up, they they'll never frame a segment about what you could do to reduce your risk, stop eating all the junk Doritos full of corn and soy and all of these industrial foods and replace them with actual food.
Speaker 1 00:40:30 And then see what happens to your risk. You know, that doesn't get mentioned. And people just like to think of this as just this virus is just some, some outside threat that will just attack people and destroy their bodies. And the reality is that's not the case. You have an immune system that can fight these things off and you can improve your chances of fighting that thing off by not spending every day of your life abusing your immune system. But that's just not, uh, not, not, not a message that anybody wants to hear kudos to you for continuously, uh, rubbing it in people's faces because they need to hear it more often. It's an astonishing degree of irresponsibility that people expect others to sacrifice their lives for them when they are not willing to make these smallest sacrifice of just quitting the junk food that is killing them.
Speaker 4 00:41:18 Yeah. The CDC does, you know, because they they've now started to recognize, I mean, and they've known this from the beginning, but it's now becoming more widely recognized that, you know, the vast majority that have died, been hospitalized had been these people that have been, you know, significantly obese, you know, in countries where obesity is is, is a billion indicators, 90% of the cases. And so the CDC recently said, well, what can you do? Well, social distance, where two masks where I'm real tight and take a vaccine, not even a passing comment about lifestyle related issues. I mean, and I comment on that. I said, look, you know, you could at least passingly mention, you know, you've got this huge platform, this, this could be the perfect opportunity to say, look America or UK or wherever, you know, Lebanon or where you can take this opportunity now to look in the mirror and say, we need to do something to change this chronic disease issue we have, because that's the real, that's the real pandemic.
Speaker 4 00:42:15 It's not even controversial. I cannot, you know, and I, I haven't watched a lot of TV, but I can't recall one instance where Anthony Fowchee has said, Hey guys, just go for a 15 minute walk a day and then cut back on the ultra processed food. It's as simple as that, it's a very simple message. You don't necessarily say, you know, I'm not expecting them to say everybody go eat a carnivore diet, but at the very least you could say, and it's not even controversial to say, put down the Doritos, go for a walk, you know, and you could do that everyday. I cannot go 15 feet outside and not hear something about wearing a mask or social distancing. You go to any major town, you are inundated with social cues, you know, wear a mask, do this, you know, on the radio, it's constantly put there, but with no additional effort, I mean, it doesn't require any additional advertising time. You could easily say, Oh, and by the way, stop eating Doritos or give up Coca-Cola we don't hear that. And why don't we hear that? Obviously, because the media companies are funded by these companies that, you know, wants you to continue to consuming their products, which is just, it's just a sad and it's so obvious. I don't know. It seems like you have to have voluntarily shut off part of your brain to not see that this is being ignored know and incredibly so.
Speaker 3 00:43:30 Yep. That's what the media is there for. I mean, it's just this constant drum beat of noise and this constant gaslighting and shaping of reality, according to what the sponsors dictates. And, uh, you know, this is all ultimately in my mind, tied in, uh, to the politics of, uh, Fiat money. You know, it's not a coincidence to call it the on food. It's not just the food because I'd like to insult it. Not just because Fiat is an insult, but these industrial things are to a very large degree Fiat food because governments all over the world that spent the last century subsidizing those things and shoving them down, their citizens throats all over the world. You know, you look throughout the 20th century, food subsidies have been massively deployed by governments all over the world and they weren't subsidizing rib-eyes, they're subsidizing soy and they're subsidized sugar and corn and all these large crops.
Speaker 3 00:44:20 And, you know, in, in terms of diets, uh, guidelines, this is a very important point. You look at how the U S NIH guidelines evolved. And, uh, you know, they basically set the tone for the entire planet, which takes w which marches, according to the beads and all the American doctors and scientists, you see American medical bodies and nutrition bodies have been, particularly since the seventies recommending enormous quantities of junk because it's cheap. And I think in my next book that the art standard, I, I draw the connection between, um, Fiat money and Theo food. It's no coincidence in the 1970s. You know, when inflation was taking off one way in which Nixon tried to fight inflation was to subsidize the production of food and to make food cheaper. So that to arrest inflation, of course, the cause of the inflation was the printing of money.
Speaker 3 00:45:13 And so the way that they tried to understate inflation was to try and get people to switch away from expensive foods. So there's all these stories about when the price of eggs went out, they started dwelling on the fact that cholesterol is bad for you, and you shouldn't need a lot of eggs because the price of eggs is going up. And then they will underway the eggs in the basket of goods. And the same thing happened with needs. And so you don't, well, you've, you, you should stay away from meat and, you know, you should get your protein from plants cause that's much cheaper and that's easier to produce at scale. And of course, when you produce it at scale, it gets less nutritious. Of course. The other thing that happens is that you create an industry that is dependent on these government subsidies, and then we lobby more and more for them.
Speaker 3 00:45:55 So, you know, initially it might've been, let's just subsidize those producers to make cheap corn and soy to make food cheap. But then you've created a massive industry that's worth billions that requires their subsidies and is going to need to lobby for them and is going to be need to advertise for them. And it's going to be, you need to push all of the doctors and scientists that lead in this direction. And this is kind of the dead end of nutrition side. And it's for the past 40 years, 40 years later, you still see those nutrition PhDs on Twitter. They're still telling you, you know, you should still get your six to 10 ratios are portions of grain. That's what the NHS website still puts. Their six to 10 operations of grain is really a prescription for diabetes, right? It's not something that a healthy person can handle.
Speaker 2 00:46:42 Yeah. I mean, if you look at the USDA who develops our, you know, who we base our guidelines off of their committee develops that, I mean, a large part of what the USDA does is promote agriculture. I mean, that's our mission. And a lot of it is grain-based and that's what, you know, in the United States, that's what we have. This is what our, one of our chief exports is, is, is, you know, putting, feeding the world grain. And, uh, this is, you know, there's just a huge financial conflict of interest in, in doing that. And then also coming out with it, with the dietary guidelines, which, you know, over and over again is show not to be, not to be evidence-based, it's basically, you know, interspace not evidence-based. And it's kind of the interest that are to continue the status quo. And unfortunately, that's what we're, that's what we're left with, you know, and I've seen a couple of questions in the chat there that, uh, you
Speaker 4 00:47:30 Know, I don't know if you want to
Speaker 3 00:47:31 Yeah. Keep asking, uh, on the quality of meat, what do you think of that? So she's saying as a burger from McDonald's a burger from McDonald's, isn't as good as a grasp at a prime rib. What do you think of that in terms of eating different types of meat? Are you very picky about the kind of meat that you eat?
Speaker 4 00:47:49 Yeah. I mean, again, I'll go back to results. I mean, I always, I always go back to results in that, and I think there's a, a couple of ways to look at, you know, where you get your meat from. And I think there's a, there's a human health argument, there's ethical and environment arguments. And I think from an environmental standpoint, I think you can clearly make an argument that eating a regenerativity raised animal is, is better for the environment. And I constantly talk about that message. And I constantly try to get people to support no ranches or do it that way. And then there's the human health side of things. And while there are nutritional differences between a animal is finished on grass, versus when it's finished on grain, we can point out and say, this one has more vitamin E or a mega three fatty acids and so on and so forth.
Speaker 4 00:48:34 The unfortunate part of that is that when you look at human results, there doesn't seem to be a big difference. In fact, there's been no difference has been shown. There's very little data on their Texas, a and M university did a study about 10 years ago, looking at this, looking at grass finished versus grain, finished beef. And they looked at some biomarkers, which maybe are not the best outcome, but it looked at things like cholesterol and HDL and triglycerides and blood pressure. And there was no, no real significant difference. In fact, the grain finished beef was slightly better with when we're looking at those results. I surveyed something like 12,000 people doing the carnivore diet and, you know, the percentage of people that got better eating grass finished versus grain finished. There was no, again, also no difference with regard to coming off medications, diabetes, like I mentioned, Harvard university is doing this study.
Speaker 4 00:49:21 And one of the questions I said, I asked the researchers, please ask about the quality of meat you're eating, whether it's crest finished grain finished, whether eating organ meats or not to decide we know because there's controversial within this community. And I've seen the results. I've seen the results on the, on the site. It's not been published yet, but once again, it's going to show basically no difference. So I know it's nice to be able to say, I'm eating grass finished beef. And I, and I think, and mind you, not all grass-finished beef is actually been a better for the environment than grain finished beef. It has to be grass finished, but it has to be managed in a certain way where the animals are, are sort of holistically graze and move very frequently so that it supports, um, the biodiversity in the soil, sequestration of carbon.
Speaker 4 00:50:07 And so for some people, you know, if you tell people, you can only eat this type of meat and do this diet, you're going to just financially exclude a whole lot of people that would otherwise attempt this. And so I tend not to, to, you know, again, I tend to go where the results are and I'm saying, look, this is a result. And it's, if you had wildly different results than I would, I would, I would definitely let people know that. But so far haven't seen that, you know, maybe maybe one day there'll be a study or enough studies that show that, you know, for certain conditions, grain finished is worse than grass-finished or vice versa, because it could be this, the other case I've got people. Now it's not to say that certain individuals, I certainly have certain individuals say, I feel better when I eat grass-finished feet. Now, maybe it's a placebo effect. Maybe they truly do feel better. I'm not going to dismiss what they say. So you just have to try it and see. But I mean, as a general recommendation, I tell people if you like it, eat it. If you can afford it, eat it, go from there, and then you can make adjustments as you need.
Speaker 3 00:51:07 Yeah. I think my, my honest opinion is that people coming from, uh, you know, the standard American diet and the standard, um, healthy diet, if you want, like, uh, which has enormous amount of conflicting information about what constitutes healthy, there's a significant amount of, uh, just an unhealthy relationship with food. And I think in the sense of people just worry about their food a little bit too much, which is probably understandable when you're eating plans. And, and, you know, you probably do want to not eat the worst kinds of plants and you want to process them properly, prepare them properly in order to eat them. But it seems looking at individuals and looking at the cases that I've seen, the Facebook groups and the carnivores, it seems pretty clear. There's a very small number of people who can tell the difference. Like there a bunch of people that have some kind of immune conditions that say they, they will feel the difference of the eight grain fed.
Speaker 3 00:51:58 They won't feel as good, but it seems pretty clear that for the majority of people, you know, if you're, if the worst thing in your diet is the grains that your cow ate then between, it seems like the immune and digestive system, the cow and your immune and digestive system are able to take care of all the damage that's in there to an extent that is unmatched, even if you're eating the, the highest quality plan today, I, I can, I don't feel much of a difference if I go from grass fed to grain fed beef, but I feel enormous difference if I go from any beef to even the, you know, the, the, the best organic, pristine, uh, bill Gates approved, uh, plants, uh, in the world. It doesn't matter what I do. You know, it's, it's really the meat that makes a difference. And the, uh, mostly I think, um, when it comes to, um, this is a deeply unpopular opinion.
Speaker 3 00:52:52 People like to purchase it and a lot about this, but I think the sad reality of it is, um, maybe first of all, before we get into that, like the majority of cows spend all of their, the majority of them buys grazing. So all cows graze, very few cows are locked up for all their life. And I don't think any, um, that they won't grow healthy like that, right? They, they graze the majority of their life differences. The grain fed cows are locked up for the last few weeks and months in order to fatten them up. Essentially they're treated like modern day citizens of democracies that get locked up to be fattened up. Um, whenever there's a virus. So I know it's not very nice the treatment that they do for the cows, but, um, you know, your responsibility is primarily for yourself. That's I think the effects of not eating meat on a human being will cause more suffering to human beings than the cows in these events. Um, the humans can suffer much more from, uh, the deprivation of meat. And I think it's pretty rich for people who are malnourished to be worrying about the suffering on the couch. When I think, you know, a lot of your own problems come from your own, not an Irishman,
Speaker 4 00:53:57 I've been on the feed, lots with cows, I've walked around with the cows and, you know, by law, at least in the United States, a single cow has to have something like 200 square feet of space, even within a feed lot. And so, and they don't even use that. So the cows aren't, they're not squished or locked in any way, shape or form. And remember they're herd animals. And the reason they cluster together is because, you know, if you go to the Plains of Africa and see a bunch of Willdabeast, they're all packed in together and why do they do that? Because they're protecting themselves from predators. That's how they do it. They kind of cluster, so they can all watch and see when a predator is coming. So it's not that they're packed in. I mean, they don't have a bad life, even on a feed lot.
Speaker 4 00:54:36 It's not some horrible thing. Now I'd say chickens, pigs have a, it's a different situation for them. And I would, I would certainly agree that those animals could probably do much better, but the general, even a feedlot cow is not got, it's not got a bad life at all, relative to, you know, another room in an animal. You know, there's a nice study out of university of Pennsylvania, looking at white deer, you know, white deer, 50% of them don't reach it to 12 weeks of age. They are, they're killed by a predator or ripped alive. Um, you know, eaten, eaten while still alive. They'll either started at the freeze to death. That's 50% of them, a modern, you know, cow that has raised in our domestic animal agriculture system has something like a 98 to 99% chance of making it to adulthood. You contrast that to a wild ruminant animal. They don't even, you know, like I said, most of the time they don't reach to adulthood. And for those vegans out there say, I speak for the animals. How many animals do you think would say, Hey, I prefer to be ripped alive as a six week old infant and eaten alive and you know, die while my intestines are reading it out or what I like to reach to adulthood, be protected, sheltered and fed every day. I don't know if it was me. I'd probably maybe, maybe take my chances on being fed every day.
Speaker 3 00:55:48 Yeah, absolutely. I think a lot of people have their image of what animals are from Disney. Um, I think I've heard you make this point before that, you know, in Disney all the animals and all the species get together and sing and play, but that's not what life is like in the wild, in the wild. They rip each other up and, uh, we give animals a much better life when you blow them for food. And, you know, they suffer for only less than a second. When they, when the stun gun hits them in the head, then they die almost immediately. So then life has very, very, very little suffering, much, much less suffering than what would happen. I think to when an individual is not eating meat. That's the way that I see it. All right. Um, anybody want to ask a question? We have a bunch of questions in the chat. I see. I see.
Speaker 4 00:56:33 Yeah. I see like Peter's question about the environmental impact of the meat industry. Um, you know, Don layman did a nice study looking at the role of red meat in, in, in sort of diets. And basically the conclusion of that study was a plant-based diet. If we went to an entirely plant-based system, we could probably produce about 20% more cattle.
Speaker 3 00:56:55 However, that
Speaker 4 00:56:57 Would result in significant nutritional deficiencies, we would have critical zinc, deficiencies, lysine, deficiencies. And so what you'd have to do is people would have to eat more calories to get the same amount of nutrition. So what happens when people eat more calories to get the same amount of nutrition, they just get fatter. So, you know, we would have a fatter populace trying to get that. And we would have all these people that don't eat enough food would, would have nutrient deficiencies. And then the other thing is, and many people don't realize this. We talked about the healthcare system. If you want to make the argument of my greenhouse gases and people are wanting to do that, you know, to save the world, the us healthcare system is responsible for about 10% of our greenhouse gases in the United States. Right now, cows produce, this is EPA data.
Speaker 4 00:57:41 Cows produce 2% of our greenhouse gases healthcare system, 10% cows, 2%. So that's a 500% difference. Interestingly, interesting lightly if every American, all 330 million of us went vegan. And in addition, you would have to get rid of every cow, every horse, every pig, every sheep, every chicken, every cat, and every dog. And you made all those animals disappear. The net effect on world greenhouse gases emissions would be something like 0.3 to 0.4%. It is a basically ridiculously non-important number for every American to do that. And so there's meatless Monday. It's just a joke. It has no impact whatsoever on saving the planet. And so the environmental impacts are just ridiculously small. Now what they'll do is I'll conflate these numbers to worldwide numbers where we'll see something like 5% of our direct emissions are attributed to all of animal agriculture. That is because many countries, particularly third world countries, where they have no industry, they don't have cars, you know, significant transportation sector or an industry sector.
Speaker 4 00:58:49 All they have is animal agriculture. And so if we were to roll back the clock 150 years, probably 50% of our greenhouse gas emissions would have been animal agriculture, but no one would make the argument that the world was heating up. And, and, you know, you know, going through this catastrophic, you know, climate change, but we are making that argument now because we have this huge fossil fuel issue, which, which is much bigger issue if you are trying to make a difference in that. So really the, the, the sort of the vegan belief that the greatest single thing you can do is to eat a plant-based diet is just a bunch of garbage. It's just a bunch of smoke and mirrors and nonsense. And you know, me not eating a steak in, in, in California has nothing to do with environmental changes in, you know, Bangladesh. It has zero to do with that. It's just, it's just not even worth talking about.
Speaker 3 00:59:41 Absolutely. And I think what gets missed in this is that cattle and large animals, large ruminants in particular are essential for healthy soil. This is how soil short is depleted when you take away the animals. So if we, if we took away the animals and, you know, we stopped farming all these animals and then having all these animals graze everywhere. It's not going to be an idealic Disney paradise, all of the deers and birds singing together with all the species it's going to be dead desert because these animals are essential because their feet tittle the ground and their feces fertilizes the ground. You take that away. You're, you're left with desert. And I particularly like, uh, Allan savory, who's done a lot of work on regenerative agriculture and, uh, reforesting by releasing large numbers of ruminants. So really animal herding is, is key for healthy soil. An idea that it's bad for the environment is just another one of these Sydney fiance sciences
Speaker 4 01:00:39 Said to that, you know, Alan Williams, who is, is, uh, another big name and, and, and has done a lot of research with guard too, with regard to a regenerative cell agriculture has done calculations on, you know, us grazing land, you know, ranch, ranch land. And if something like 40% of the ranches switched to this regenerative style agriculture and it, and those numbers are growing, it's, it's, you know, five, seven, 8%. Now you get to 40% essentially with carbon sequestration that the animals have been shown and proven to do. You can completely offset the entire carbon emissions of the entire United States, all industries combined just by doing that. And so that is a solution we've also seen that, you know, they're playing with feed additives, you know, they're using these algae-based feed additives to the animals and they show they can completely shut out all methane production from cattle.
Speaker 4 01:01:30 I mean, something 99% of the methane that they produced, which is the big concern. Although it's real terms, it's not much of a concern because methane is part of the natural carbon cycle that's been going on for, you know, a hundred million years. Since, since we, since Roman, it started to first, you know, populate the planet. And so we've got this, uh, system that, you know, we've, we've, we've always had, you know, in the United States, we had anywhere between 30 and 90 million Buffalo roaming, the Plains, plus all the elk and deer and bison and, uh, you know, other animals that were there far more than we have today. Uh, you know, the us cattle inventory is about 90 million cattle. You know, we had far more than that before without issue.
Speaker 3 01:02:12 Yeah. Before, uh, agriculture came to the Americas, I think it was a 10 foot of topsoil on the American soil. But now with agriculture, essentially, most of the top soil is depleted. And you need to add fertilizers to have any kind of plants growing. Um, max is asking, what about long-term effects of the carnivore diet 10, 15 years? And could there be long-term consequences? Have you seen anything or heard of anything?
Speaker 4 01:02:38 Well, I mean, this is an impossible question to answer, because I will tell you that there are no randomized controlled trials of any diet that's ever been done that I can, I can answer that question. So I, I tend to say this isn't hard. This is a non argument. This is, this is astrology. This is, you know, reading the tealeaves. We're never going to know that for sure. What I will point out are there are traditional populations that have lived for millennia and lived, you know, 70, 80 years on basically carnival done. So you can look at the Sami population, for instance, in Northern Scandinavia, Finland, you know, uh, some of the Northern Russia, these people live on basically caribou meat, reindeer, meat, and they actually particularly the Sammy live longer and in greater health than their city dwelling, you know, peers in Finland. And so we can say their, their average life expectancy, something like 82.
Speaker 4 01:03:36 So, you know, to say that, you know, this is a thing, you know, you just, you can't come up with a critical argument because you look at people in front of you and saying, wow, they've lost weight while they've got off all their medications while they say they're really healthy. Well, now the next bogeyman is, well in 20 years, you're going to die. Well, I don't know. Maybe you are, maybe you're not, you know, I mean, I know at some point I'm going to die. What am I going to die of? I don't know, probably heart disease. Cause that's what most people die of. But to, to, to use that as an argument is, I mean, you, you probably have similar arguments about Bitcoin, Oh one day a quantum computer is going to come by and just only disrupt Bitcoin. They won't go after the banking system. They won't go after, you know, th th th the electricity grid, they're only gonna attack Bitcoin with this quantum computer. It's a nonsense argument.
Speaker 3 01:04:22 Exactly. And it's, it's, it's exactly the same thing that, you know, the same people that are concerned about what the carnivore diet is going to do to you 20 years from now, we're never concerned about what eating junk food was going to do to me five days or five years or 20 years from now. You know, as long as I was eating junk, like everybody else, nobody was concerned about me now that I'm healthy eating meat. Everyone is concerned. Similarly with Bitcoin, you know, all of the people worrying about quantum computing or Bitcoin don't seem to be worrying about what quantum computing is going to be doing to all of the essential infrastructure, without which they would die. You know, like if you think Bitcoin's a problem, what's going to happen to the nuclear launch codes and, you know, incidentally Sean, uh, at some point in his career, in the military, he was in charge of the nuclear launch code. So if you're alive today, you want to live thanks to Sean's grace, not well. Yeah. I mean, I did,
Speaker 4 01:05:18 I used to launch nuclear weapons ICBM's for the air force. And that was something that, you know, and fortunately one person cannot go Renegade and launch things. So you have to have a cooperative effort and all the key codes and all that stuff. But yes, I used to, they used to trust me with that stuff. So maybe I wasn't totally crazy. Maybe they wouldn't do that. Yeah. But that was before the meats for the current or, yeah.
Speaker 3 01:05:39 Yeah. All right. So in all of your years of kindness, have you come across any convincing arguments or any particular plants that we need to eat? I've been a carnival of five and a half years. I've not found that I've missed anything. Do you think that there's anything for that there's any particular plant that's essential?
Speaker 4 01:05:58 You know, I don't, I don't think, you know, I think, and again, I'll go back to this, the human colonization of earth, if there would have been one plant that we have to have to, to survive, I would ask you, what is it, where does it grow? Can you demonstrate that it grows in every part of the world and in all seasons? And if you can't find that, then the answer is no. And I, and I, I don't think there's any plants that grow, you know, maybe grass, maybe we need to eat grass. I don't know, but I mean, there's no plant that grows everywhere. Humans have spread. You know, we are the most widely diverse ranging species on the planet. The second most species that has had that diversity is a Wolf wolves have occupied as much life, almost as much land as humans have.
Speaker 4 01:06:43 And w you know, again, wolves have very similar diets to what I think humans perhaps are designed to have. In fact, if you look at a radio isotope data data from, you know, max Planck and institution institutions, specifically, um, Michael Richard's work, you know, the, the, the, the stable isotope of nitrogen and carbon signatures show that humans had a very carnivorous diet, just as much as wolves, we actually eat more meat than walls did back, you know, when they, when the samples are taking 50,000 years ago. So I don't think there's a, there's a single plant that you have to have. I don't think fiber is necessary. I haven't had any fiber in five years, if it was a necessary nutrient, arguably I'd be dead. Right. I mean, that's, that's how I define necessary. Some people will say conditionally beneficial, or, and these are more nuanced arguments, but, uh, you know, the short answer is no, I don't believe there's a single plant that we must have to, to either survive or thrive.
Speaker 3 01:07:40 All right. So we've got a couple of questions on fasting. What is your opinion on fasting? Do you think it's beneficial and then, yeah,
Speaker 4 01:07:48 I mean, I think it certainly can be beneficial for certain people. I think people that have a very dysregulated appetites of an eating a standard American junk food diet for years and their appetite and their satiety signals are so wildly screwed up because of the, you know, Moscowitz's bliss point where he's kind of designed food that you can't stop eating, and you never get satiated because you're never eating food of any high quality. Sometimes that that sort of fasting, whether it's, you know, going for two days or going 18 hours of fasting and six hours of eating window, that can be beneficial for people that need that. I think in general, the diet itself should drive your appetite schedule. You know, I can look at it. We can all go out in the wild and observe animals. None of them are wearing a stopwatch. None of them are having an app to tell them how to eat.
Speaker 4 01:08:40 None of them are walking around with Fitbit trackers and they do just fine. And I think human beings when given the food we're designed to eat generally do pretty well. I mean, I often leave once or twice a day, and it's not because I'm consciously trying to meet some things. Here's, what's this when I'm hungry. And, you know, I find that, like, for instance, this morning, I sat down and, you know, just before I got here about 7:00 AM, I had four pounds of steak, which sounds a little crazy for most people, but that may be my only meal today. You know, if I get particularly hungry later day, I'll eat again, but odds are, I probably won't. Um, and so I'm kind of what we call physiologically fasting, you know, technically anytime you're not stuffing food in your mouth, you're fasting. It's just, how long do you want to draw that line?
Speaker 4 01:09:26 Whether it's 15 minutes or 15 hours is, you know, just kind of semantics at that point. Um, and so I think there's benefits from not constantly stuffing food in your face. And I think that's what part of the snack food industry, the, you know, Oh my God, when I was a child, I would come home from school and I would tell my mom, Hey, I'm kind of hungry. And the answer back then was, well, wait till dinner. Cause you're going to spoil your appetite. The answer today is, you know, here's a granola bar, here's a, here's a little Apple juice, you know, or, or, or something. And so we've got that mentality that the second you have the slightest bit of hunger, you've got to immediately slake that, that, that, that desire with some sort of cheap, highly refined, you know, junk food or some energy source, which is in a long-term note going to do good. So I think, I think infrequent meals is probably beneficial. I think the diet itself shouldn't lend itself to that pattern though.
Speaker 3 01:10:24 Yeah. I remember you mentioning that the way you like to think about it is that you prefer intermittent these things to interact. And I think that makes sense. I think, you know, if you, if you get hungry before you planned on having a nice meal, then you didn't have enough meat in the meal that you add. So, but I'm wondering, do you find any particular preference for carnivores, longterm carnivores? Is it better to be eating one meal a day, two meals to three meals, or do you think it's, um,
Speaker 4 01:10:53 You know, I think that the pattern I see most common, you know, is, is a two meal a day pattern. I think that's, that's what most people do, you know, because I think there's a certain amount of calories that you need to get in on, on a daily basis. And some people don't have the capacity to enough carers in one sitting. I mean, I fortunately can eat, you know, I can sit down and eat four pounds in one sitting, which a lot of people would struggle with. I do that pretty regularly and I don't have an issue with that. And so I can get, you know, I think what my caloric requirements are in one sitting, but most people do two meals a day. And I think again, if we go back and we think about being a Hunter Hunter gatherer, if you will, but probably a Hunter, a nomadic person that, you know, if you had to eat a meal every three hours, how problematic would that be?
Speaker 4 01:11:39 You know, you're walking through the woods to wherever you're going and you've got to stop every three hours and set up camp and, and light a fire and cook some food, you know, that's unlikely to happen. You know, it's just, you don't have a microwave, you don't have pots and pans. So, so I think, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's probably probably humans very likely ate, you know, large meals in one setting and maybe only ate once a day, maybe twice, maybe twice a day. But, you know, you can, you can certainly look at other populations. You know, there's a historical counts of say Mongolians. And for any people that doesn't, don't realize that the Mongolian empire was the largest part of that ever existed on earth. And they lived on basically a carnivorous diet and they were such good military operators that they could travel for, you know, a hundred miles in a day and bring their food with them, bring their, their cattle with them, eat them and just keep moving instead of, uh, you know, where the Chinese, where they conquered, where they're reading a grain-based society, where they struggled to transport their food.
Speaker 4 01:12:37 And they're very, very dependent upon staying in one position,
Speaker 3 01:12:40 One place all the time. Yeah. Um, so do you have any kind of guidelines for how, how much meat one should aim to eat or do you think you should just go by what your body tells you?
Speaker 4 01:12:50 It depends on, you know, where you are in, in, in this sort of journey. I think in the beginning, you know, when people have transitioned to the diet, I tell people eat enough so that you don't want a cupcake, you know, and I think that's because that's, that's dealing with these food addiction issues that people have, it's changing over to perhaps a more fat-based or, or non carbohydrate based metabolism. Um, beyond that, I mean, I think it's just as simple as, you know, one, are you hungry if you're hungry, keep eating and then look at your energy levels and your performance. You know, if you're, if you're, you know, if you're struggling with, with, you know, cognition or the ability to function, then you're probably still under eating. And it's, it's, it's a very, I think the biggest probably issue that people have is they tend to under eat more than overeat. That's that that's really, it's hard to overeat on the diet. It's not impossible, but it is challenging. And so people underrate initially, and then they end up sometimes symptomatic from just not getting enough food.
Speaker 3 01:13:45 And what are your thoughts on the fat and protein? Um, do you think you prefer to do this with high fat, high protein? What are your guidelines on it? Yeah,
Speaker 4 01:13:55 I mean, it depends on goals. If I want to get this super, super lean, you know, and walk around with a six pack and just, you know, Hey, take a picture and say, look at me, Ali, I'll tend to eat a little bit leaner. I think from a performance standpoint, there is a certain threshold amount of fat that you need. And I think that varies a little bit from person to person. For me personally, you know, protein around 35 to 40% is something that's closely matches the macronutrients of a ribeye steak. Just kind of just incidentally, if you look at that for, you know, by, by calorie, uh, comparison. So 65% fat by calorie, 35% fat calories of protein that tends to work pretty well. Um, if you're not getting any energy from, from carbohydrates, you need an energy source. And, you know, if you have a lot of body fat on you, then you can tap into that for a while.
Speaker 4 01:14:48 But once you get leaner, you need to have, you know, a decent amount of fat, you know, you don't have to go ketogenic macronutrient ratios were eating 80 or 90% of your fat, which some people like to do. And there's reasons for doing that, particularly for certain disease conditions. But I think for the average, normally functioning person, a mix of about where I'm at seems to work pretty well. It's kind of interesting. You, you can, there's a, there's an and again, there's a study on dog feeding where they self select their, their relative fat and protein percentage. And interestingly dogs will, you know, if they come from a sort of a nutrient deprived situation, they'll eat a higher fat diet initially, and then they'll gradually sell, select a little bit leaner diet once they kind of reach, I guess, you know, uh, nutrient sufficiency. So I think there's some degree where your body has this feedback system that says, okay, I've got enough. Fat-soluble vitamins. Maybe I don't need to focus on that as well. And I think there's, there's, you know, there'll be days when the fat is really appealing and there'll be other days when it's not. And I think you just kind of listened. I think, you know, if you're in tune with your body, it just makes sense.
Speaker 1 01:15:57 That was my experience too. I used to prefer very fatty meat when I started, but now I like leaner meats have, uh, uh, shifted more toward porterhouse than, uh, ribeye over time. I still obviously love a ribeye. Don't get me wrong. There was a follow up question to the fasting, not Sarah was asking the Ramadan coming up. He plans to be fascinated. He's asking, is there a problem or health risk when you do carnival without water for longer hours in the day? I don't know the effect that that would happen. Do you think, um, do you think there's a problem there?
Speaker 4 01:16:29 Well, you know, it's interesting because, and there's been a number of studies ramen on, and there's a lot of published studies on, on Ramadan fasting, and this is a dry fast. And because, you know, from sunup to sundown now, fortunately it's in, you know, March, so you don't have as much daylight this year as compared to others when it's in July. I think that, you know, there is potentially if you're eating a lot of protein, a greater requirement for, for water, so that could potentially be an issue. So I think that, um, perhaps, uh, you know, this might be a time where you kind of skew more towards fat. You'll probably need a little bit, a little less metabolic water, you know, and the reason I say that is because when you're processing a lot of protein, your body will take the nitrogen. They'll, deaminate the amino acids and you have to, and then it converts into ammonia and ammonia is then changed to urea by the liver very quickly. And then you have to get rid of that urea. And that often requires some fluid with that. In, in reality, it's probably not a big deal. I don't think you're going to be accumulating ammonia unless you've got underlying liver disease or something like that. So the reality answer is probably it's going to be a minimal impact. Um, you know, if you want it to hedge your bets a little bit, you might, you know, lean a little bit more on, on fat than, than proteins protein during that time.
Speaker 1 01:17:51 Fantastic. Thank you. This has really been extremely helpful. Anybody else have more questions? Oh yeah. Peter is asking about coffee. What do you think of coffee, Sean?
Speaker 4 01:18:00 You know, it's kind of funny. I've never been a coffee drinker. I just, I, you know, when I was a 14 year old boy, I used to work as a dishwasher at a restaurant. You know, I'd get up at four 30 in the morning to go wash dishes. And as a 14 year old kid, you know, it's generally not something that 14 year old kids like to do very much, but I, I just ended up doing that. And I remember I came into work one day and I looked particularly tired in the, the chef or the cook said, here you go kid. And he showed her a cup of coffee in my face. And I guess it was, maybe it was from the day before. I don't know, it just tasted awful to me. And I thought, how could people possibly drink this stuff? So I'd never been, even when I was in my surgical residency, working 115, 130 hours a week, you know, dead, I never, never got into coffee.
Speaker 4 01:18:44 Having said that, I think people that do a carnival diet, many of them, you know, do coffee. I don't generally recommend cutting out coffee during a transition period. Um, you may want to, if you're, like I said, if you're transitioning, maybe give it three, six months and then revisit whether or not coffee is something you want to keep or remove from the diet. I will say of the people that do remove coffee, maybe slightly more than 50% of them say they feel better without the coffee. And so, and you know, why is that? Well, coffee can compete with mineral absorption. It obviously has appetite, dysregulated digs, dysregulation effects that can interfere with sleep so on and so forth. The benefits, you know, to stimulate, you know, it may have some athletic advantages with regard to, uh, performance and, and heart rate. You know, you can perform at a higher intensity with a lower heart rates that may have benefits, but, uh, coffee, you know, caffeine, not, not just coffee, but caffeine it's functional.
Speaker 4 01:19:40 The reason why P plants express caffeine is it is a neurotoxin for insects. And that's why caffeine was invented by plants. So the fact that we, we find it nice and tasty and a drink is something. I like the smell of coffee by my girlfriend. Who's French drinks, a lot of coffee, or at least a cup or two a day. And I liked the way it smells, but I just don't personally enjoy it at all. But so I would say it's probably one of those things that's of minor importance, quite honestly, you know, it's not one of the big things, you know, I think you can do. I would rather see you go out and exercise and do a carnivore diet than just kind of coffee.
Speaker 3 01:20:17 Yeah. I used to be a heavy coffee drinker, but on carnival where, um, I, I didn't even have to like plan on quitting. It, it just went away and now if I need coffee, um, like if I have a long drive, I'll buy a coffee and I'll just smell it and you have to drink it.
Speaker 4 01:20:34 That's another interesting thing is that we see a lot of people that have different sort of addiction type issues, whether it's alcohol, coffee, drugs, smoking, find it much easier to quit when they go on a carnivore diet. And I think there's reasons why they have to do with brain physiology and, you know, the different, additional addiction, physiology pathways that are occurring. But that that's, that is an interesting thing. So, yeah, but early on, I would say, just leave the coffee in for now and then, and then maybe later revisit drops.
Speaker 3 01:21:03 One more drug question, Aja and Makita are both asking. What about a good low time preference wine with the steak? What do you think of? How do you mind?
Speaker 4 01:21:13 Yeah, so it's interesting. Um, I, again, I don't promote alcohol as a health food. I understand why people do it. I occasionally again, I've got a French girlfriend, I'll have a glass of red wine. Interestingly, saturated fat in both animal and human studies has been shown to mitigate the potentially damaging effects on the liver. So, you know, we know that ethanol has, has a potential, you know, we see that alcoholics have cirrhosis of the liver and there's there's pathways that allow that to occur. But saturated fat seems to minimize that effect. So if you're going to have a glass of wine, you should pair it with a nice steak. I mean, I think that's how you, you, you should look at that. So, and, you know, and, and obviously these are classic combinations. And so I'm not opposed to that, but I, you know, again, if you're an occasional glass of wine is obviously different than drinking three bottles a night every night for, for years, you're going to have a very different outcome.
Speaker 3 01:22:04 Yeah. Well, Sean, thank you so much. Um, I thank you for the time and thank you for all the answers. I've, uh, settled, all the questions that I had outstanding. And I've, I think a lot of my listeners would really appreciate this. Thank you so much. Can you tell us a little bit more about where people can find you online?
Speaker 4 01:22:22 Sure. So I think the best place to get in there, like we mentioned, meter x.com. I'm in fact, I'm heading there in just a few minutes every day for one hour a day, I host a session for anybody who wants to come, so we can talk, you know, you know, person to person will sometimes turn that into a podcast. You know, like I said, right now, I'm going to have gotten Mickey Ben door and we're going to talk anthropology. Uh, my social media, you know, Sean Baker, 1967, his Instagram. So it's S H a w N B a K E R one nine six seven on Instagram, Twitter S Baker MD. And you know, and I put up some stuff that just pisses a lot of people off, you know, from time to time, but it's controversial. But I think, you know, you've got to encourage the conversation.
Speaker 4 01:23:01 And so far, man is not to get kicked off any of these things, but I'm always sort of in the back of my mind, at least a little concerned about that. Like I said, I, I want to, first of all, I just thank the Bitcoin community for the, for the warm welcome, you know, I, I kinda, uh, I think a couple of weeks ago, I said, Hey, I'm going, I'm, I'm, I'm all in on Bitcoin. I see the writing on the wall. And, uh, you know, it's kinda, it's pretty obvious where this is going. And so I think, I think I hope I'm still early. I think I'm still early. I mean, I think most of you guys would, I think you guys don't understand. I think we're still early on this stuff. And so I'm just, uh, you know, gradually doing the, just the hobbling thing. And I think that's all I need to know. It's kind of a, you know, like you said, it's a no brainer, I suppose the same thing with the diet Steed, a bunch of meat, you know, I would add, do some exercise and get out in the sun and hold some Bitcoin.
Speaker 6 01:23:48 Absolutely. Thank you so much.
Speaker 4 01:23:51 All right. So thanks everybody for joining. And I look forward to talking to you again and safe. Okay.
Speaker 6 01:23:55 Cheers. Thank you. Take care. Bye now. Bye-bye.
